From biotech to producing rap music for Drake
šµbusiness philosophies from multi-platinum Drake producer Jarrel Young
The Come Up highlights successful business ownersā & operators ācome-upā stories in an easy-to-read, written interview format.
All content is transcribed from live interviews, this one, from Jan 2023.
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For the fourth issue:
An interview with multi-platinum, award-winning music producer Jarrel Young!
Quick Stats:
š¤Business: Music Production
šBiggest Records Produced:
šTotal Streams: 500M+
š°Best Performing Record: $300k+
šTarget 2023 Revenue: $500k
ā³Time In Business: 10+
šHow Many Times He Almost Quit: 3
šRead the full interview belowā¦
On getting startedā¦
I started kind of late - making music at 21, and Iām 36 nowā¦
So 15 years Iāve been making music; 10 of which, Iāve been trying to make a living off of.
And just to give some context, I have an education in biotech and clinical research - when I finished my degree, I spent a year or so working in hospitals, for pharmaceutical companies, doing different jobsā¦
But I decided to leave all that behind and try to make a career out of music - I probably need to go to therapy to figure out why, but I was convinced the 9-5 life wasnāt for me and I was somehow special.
Nobody gets into music for the business - they do it because they love the art, or they want to āmake itā - you hear those themes recurringā¦ So everybody in the music industry, especially in Toronto, is probably a little undereducated on the business side of things, but can speak to having this ādream of making itā - whatever that means.Ā
In my case, I think āmaking itā really represented freedom - a deviation from the norm, maybe rooted in a deep fear of realityā¦*laughs*Ā
That said, I got into the music and I remember telling my wife,
āYo, I only need about two years to hustle in this music thing, and then Iām going to start making some money like I promised you, because I am a hard workerā¦ā
Little did I know that period would last, I donāt know, seven yearsā¦
On landing the first big recordā¦
The end of 2014, me and my business partner at the time landed a single called Uma Thurman with the group Fall Out Boy - that song was an amazing success for us.Ā
It went straight to be a radio single, was double platinum in the US, and I think the UK.Ā
That was our first REAL win and ended up being a great income stream.
How profitable is a double-platinum record?
We made a bunch of money - letās call it $300k off of that recordā¦
But the way you get paid and the way a single song is divided is extremely confusing - not only because there are so many people involved and your equity in the record gets reduced, but there is the mastering rights, and publishing side of the record; things like neighbouring rightsā¦
Way too much to get into here - just know itās extremely complicated...
But in laymanās terms, letās say I own 10% of one side of the record..
and I own 1.5% of the other halfā¦
Call it 5% total for simplicity's sake - that 5% made us about $300kā¦
That means the song probably totalled about $6M total during that time?
But itās not like you invoice and get paid immediately, you get paid over multiple years and you donāt actually know exactly how much youāre going to getā¦
So, for the first few years, we probably only got paid out $25-30kā¦
And Iāll never going to forgetā¦
About 2 years after the song came out, I got my SOCAN cheque, which was about $60k - and maybe another 6 months after that, another $80k USD from the label.
I think the song made more - itās hard to remember at this point, and itās hard to actually track how much money is coming your way - you really donāt have any control.
On finding success before being readyā¦
Despite the success we found, and as good as ālanding a big recordā was for the pocket book, it was an income stream we werenāt really ready for.
To compete at that level, you have to be extremely professional and proficient - and answering honestly we werenāt. You have to be able to repeat your success all the time at different angles.Ā
After doing the Fall Out Boy record, their team and the A&R who was dealing with us would be asking us for more records, but we couldnāt reproduce the energy we had on the Uma Thurman recordā¦Ā
Theyād be like,
āOkay, we want another oneā¦
We want one like thisā¦
Can you do the same record you did before - but letās make it about this???
Now letās make an ā80s version of it.
Letās keep people dancingā¦āĀ
But the reality is, we stumbled into making Uma Thurman, and didnāt have enough skill to repeat success over and over again. What actually makes great producers is not landing something once, but being able to understand what works and replicate it over and over again.
On defining success, and goal settingā¦
I would break it down to three stages of my lifeā¦
Stage 1
You could say when I first jumped in, my idea of āmaking itā was working with big artistsā¦
At that point, I had a poor understanding of how money was actually flowing, so my ability to understand what was possible was very narrow - I didnāt yet know what I wanted, I just knew I wanted big records.Ā
And, as Iāll explain later, I didnāt even realize why I wanted big records.Ā
My understanding of āmaking itā was being like my mentor, Cirkut and Adrian, and being able to work with the big artists, to be shaping culture, and have hit songs.Ā
Cirkut may not be a household name, but he was working with everybody - from Katy Perry to Rihanna, T-Pain, Lil Wayneā¦you name itā¦
He has number ones with everybody - so, thatās who I wanted to work with.Ā
I thought it would be just as easy as getting in with this guy, working really hard.
In the first stage, I didnāt even really have a financial goal because I didnāt understand enough to know what that meant - at that point, it was either poor or rich.
Stage 2
In the second stage, I had made some money but I didnāt have a clear action plan - my idea of making money was continuously getting better opportunities - but keep in mind ābetterā still wasnāt defined financially - it had a lot to do with status.Ā
And in that sense, we were set up to fail in a lot of ways - most of them our own fault.
It was a fundamental lack of business acumenā¦I just didnāt understand what the business was.Ā
Stage 3
The third stage is where I am now - Iām just building a small business like anyone elseā¦
A lack of accountability and responsibility were huge reasons why I wasnāt able to build a proper business back then, but now I realize I provide a service, and I can charge for that service. So I need to go find clients, and hire a team to help me market and sell these services.Ā
Why I feel Iām successful now is I combine all the things I have - big balls and a lot of heart, with proper business practices - understanding every businessā core problem which is āI need to find clients.āĀ
and then I just provide the service... *laughs*
and do a good jobā¦
and then get paidā¦.
and then just do it again.
I make sure my bottom line is covered, and after that, can go back to being overly passionate Jarrel, taking moonshots, working for big placements or whatever elseā¦
But really, success is building a company that allows me to control the outcome.
Right now, for example, Iām getting into TV and film, and am building that arm of my company up which allows for a lot more of that control I mentioned.Ā
If I do $500k in revenue this year, Iāll consider it a successful year.
On outsourcing and building the wrong teamā¦
Ironically, the āfreedomā I initially craved, I wasnāt getting because I was relying on other people to actually build my business - I wanted freedom but gave it all away.
But itās because my financial situation was so unstable, I panicked and thought I needed all this helpā¦
I was double platinum with a massive band, but still moving furniture for petty cash and working with local artists I knew were never going to go anywhereā¦
I was completely panicking and was like,
āI need a managerā¦
I need a labelā¦
I need to step this game up.āĀ
Those thoughts arenāt wrong, but it was desperation driving those decisions - and the idea I had to outsource created a huge setback.
I stopped vetting opportunities for myselfā¦
I just was like,
āAll right, letās just get a labelā¦
Letās get them to give me money,
get them to pay for my music video,
and then move forward.ā
I didnāt vet my lawyerā¦
I didnāt vet my managementā¦
So when I started looking back and being like, āWhy arenāt any of these things moving?āĀ
Wellā¦
My business partner was not keeping up his endā¦
I wasnāt holding up my endā¦
My manager was running around ruining relationshipsā¦
The label stopped caring and was waiting to drop usā¦
I could see I was losing control of the ship, but instead of just being like,
āMan, somethingās not right with my companyā¦
let me make a list of whatās wrong and fix itā¦ā
I would defer solving the actual problem to the future.
Thoughts likeā¦
āAll right, me and my partnerā¦weāre not seeing eye to eye - but itāll be fine once we get on tour.ā
I can tell you right now - that never worked.Ā
Now, when I have a problem, I just deal it immediately.
It took me a long time and a lot of self-work to take full responsibility for what happened. (psychedelics may or may not have been involved *laughs*)
I think if I had a great manager and a shitty label, it could have worked, but thereās no escaping a shitty manager AND a shitty label.Ā
At that point, youāve just built a losing team.
On the shrinking window of relevancyā¦
After landing the Fall Out Boy record so many doors opened up, but thereās an instant shot clock - you can see your own relevancy and window of opportunity closing a little bit every day. You see people care less and less about what youāve done in the past and your name being less relevant.
So much of what youāve done recently mattersā¦
Immediately following the Fall Out Boy success, any A&R or label would be like,Ā
āWell, I have these guys, theyāre just off a radio hit thatās number 20 on the Hot 100 Billboard.āĀ
So naturally, everyoneās like, āYo, get him in the room for sure,ā because we COULD be the next big thing!Ā
But a year later, thereās 30 kids in front of you who just did the same thing you did last yearā¦so now youāre 3rd, 4th or 5th on peopleās lists of people to work with, and that continues every year.Ā
So, you see your relevancy go down and by extension, my anxiety started to go way up which definitely contributed to some of the bad decisions I made.
The problem with the music industry in Canadaā¦
When I signed to Universal Canada, I got an advance - about $50k total for one album - which sounds great, but really comes with itās own set of issues. This may be a whole other conversation, but thereās huge issues with the way the Canadian labels operate.
Canadian labels were never built to be successful on their own - they were built as the marketing arm for Americans to the Canadian people, so the labels donāt have the infrastructure to build a successful roster of their own Canadian talent.
So in order to fund Canadian projects, they usually just apply for government grants on their artists behalf - so their operating budget for breaking new Canadian acts is funded by things like FACTOR grants.
Fast forward - we spend the money creating that album, but for a number of reasons, it never even came outā¦
Youād think thatās bad, but Universal Canada doesnāt actually need us to be successful to continue to apply for grants - they donāt careā¦
It doesnāt affect their operating budget at all.Ā
If you work at Universal, your main job is promoting the major artistsā¦and if someone signs me and I flop, it doesnāt reflect negatively on them. They can sign a million people, have a million fail, and it doesnāt matter to them so they donāt care.Ā
That just builds up to create a system where thereās no successā¦
no innovationā¦
no desire to build cultureā¦
Everyone is going through the motions, and artists continue to FEEL momentum because āthey got a record deal,ā but it rarely moves the needle.
Compare that to the US - you could have a young A&R that believes in someone - theyāre going to go to their VP and be like,
āYo, I need a million dollars to blow this artist up.ā
That vice president is going to say,
āFine, Iāll give you a million dollars for this project, but if this doesnāt work, thatās your ass.ā
Thereās accountability - they get real budgets, but they need to sell recordsā¦
they need to sell out showsā¦
Thatās how this whole thing works.Ā
On crashing to reality and reframingā¦
It eventually really dawned on me that I wasnāt as talented as I thought I wasā¦
I wasnāt Will.i.amā¦
I wasnāt Pharrell.Ā
I was a kid who got lucky, who had a lot of heart, and stumbled upon cool ideasā¦Ā
But I wasnāt a proficient enough musician where I could be of real service to anybody who was really a top tier talent. Those things really hit you to your core.Ā
And itās like, āWell, if Iām not these guys, then who the fuck am I?ā
Imposter syndrome kicks in - tons of anxiety and realizing I was chasing the wrong thingsā¦I stopped care about hits, I just cared about sustainability.
I think real success is not about hitting the big ones, but being able to hit medium ones all the time.Ā
On his biggest winsā¦Ā
Obviously, the Fall Out Boy record is hugeā¦Ā
The band that me and my partner had - Young Wolf Hatchlings - we had medium success online, and decent success in sync - a few songs that got picked up in a few TV shows and probably made us $100k or soā¦that was really great.
Thereās a Toronto artist named Zolo - we have a song with him featuring Tory Lanez that did well online, and we own a part of a Jessie Reyez record, which is also very lucrative.Ā
But the new ābigā one is the Drake record - I produced Papiās Home on Drakeās album CLB.Ā
That was a huge record - I think it was number 8 on the Hot 100 Billboard.
Ironically, the Drake record might have had a bigger cultural splash, but the Fall Out Boy record will generate more money for two reasonsā¦
One - it was on the radio for a long time in the States; at the end of the day, radio still generates the most money by leaps and bounds.Ā
Streaming doesnāt mean shit in comparison to radio.Ā
Two - Uma Thurman was one of their main touring songsā¦
They toured the crap out of that album and we make royalties every time they perform - which I think is actually something like $50 bucks every time.
And radio works based on listening percentage - it played on major radio stations all over the US, so weāre making like $2 every time it plays.Ā
On almost quittingā¦
I almost quit three times, but it never stuckā¦
Even when I thought I did - my ālastā quit, which wouldāve been 2020 - I was still building a studio in my basement.Ā I remember building the new studio and telling my dad, like, āI donāt know why Iām building this studioā¦āĀ
At that point, I didnāt see a way forward.
Iāve never actually quit, but I remember having conversations with my wife just being like, āYeah, I think Iām done. I think thereās nothing left here.āĀ
And just when I start to become comfortable with that, something would happen, Iād get reenergized and keep moving forward.
The first time - I had been working for 2 or 3 years making no money and I was just like, āI got to quit because Iām just broke,ā and I just kept trying to borrow money from people to make it workā¦
That was really early onā¦
The second time would be after my relationship with manager and my partner fell apart - I was on my own trying to get out of the Universal Canada deal.
I was so tired and suffering terrible anxiety.
And then the third time being locked down in COVID - I was in a weird place mentally and emotionally, my wife got pregnant with our second, and I was just thinking, āWhat the fuck am I doing?āĀ
I was like, āYeah, I think Iām doneā¦āĀ
Then your boy Drake came out and blessed me. laughs
The unpredictability of big recordsā¦
The Drake thing was very difficult because itās not like I have a personal relationship with himā¦it was kind through a friend of a friend - the record got bounced around a lot, so I had no control of that.Ā
I didnāt even know the song was going to be on the album until after it actually came outā¦Ā I had heard rumours, but hadnāt actually signed any papers when the album came out, so I didnāt know the song was going to be on the album.Ā
On the next five yearsā¦
If thereās one thing Iāve learned, itās understanding when youāre lucky vs. what is a repeatable business you can do over and over againā¦
I mentioned to an extent, the Fall Out Boy record was luck because we couldnāt replicate that successā¦
And I realized quickly the Drake situation was luck - so I wasnāt willing to stop everything for the small chance of working with Drake again. Instead, Iāve spent the last few years focusing on what I believe is both a sustainable and scalable businessā¦
And thereās two elements - the first is Iām building the first BIPOC post-production house in Canada. The post-production game is super lucrative, and in Ontario there are very few houses that do post-production. There are also so few black content creators in music - Canadian companies have historically never hired people of colour to do these jobs, so I want to build the first black one.
I also really love making kids' music - they pay upfront and they pay quick, so Iām going to keep doing that.Ā
If you had asked me three years ago if I wanted to do kids' music, Iād be like,
āHell no! Iām way too cool for that!ā
But I have one Canadian client bringing in more predictable revenue than a ātop 10ā record with Drake. Iām certain Iām going to make more money from Corus than I ever do from Drake.
To me, thatās how I look at a proper business I can scale - I have the opportunity to make a new sound, and build a new generation of people doing TV music.Ā
Right now, I have 2 or 3 songs from the last season of Thomas the Tank Engine and I produced ALL the music for a new Nickelodeon kids' show coming out at the end of 2023.Ā
That is going to be a huge - a brand-new show Iām really looking forward to, which is why I think itās time I can build a real company - I finally have enough work coming in where I can hire people, have them working and stay busy.
Booked and busy is my saying - thatās the goal.Ā
On exitingā¦
So thereās two sides - letās separate Jarrel the songwriter from Jarrel the business person.
Jarrel the business person wants to build a scalable business that can help grow the music footprint of his marginalised community in Canada. When it comes to exiting - as long as it keeps its identity, Iām down with that. That said, Iāve never thought about selling that company - thatās just going to go on forever.Ā
What I have thought about is, as a solo entity - the āartistā producing for the Drakes of the world - eventually selling my share of the music catalogue to private equity firms or really whoever else wants to buy it. Itās increasingly become a trend, because music catalogues are actually a very stable long term investment.
Well performing records are almost recession proof, so I'd like to produce for the next 10 years and sell my catalogue when Iām around 45 for upwards of $20M.
If I can put every big song Iāve done together and sell my stake as a package, I could just be like āCool, Iāve cashed outā¦Iāve made $20M, and now I can do yoga for the next 30 years.āĀ
On competitive advantageā¦.
I always ask myself - Do you have any competitive advantage?
And while you have that advantage, can you exploit it to a point where nobody can catch up to you? I think about that all the time, and despite almost quitting, itās the one thing that kept me working.
I realized if I was to go start anything elseā¦well, I kind of donāt have any other skillsā¦ laughs
Ā I was like, āIām in my 30s, I have kids, Iām married, I donāt have the ability to be wild, so, what am I going to do?āĀ
The only thing I really have an advantage in is my experience with music - Iāve put in my 10,000 hours and then someā¦so it made sense for me to go back and use my experience in a different way - hence, kidsā music.
And quite frankly, because Iām black, it helped me get into Corus, because they realized they didnāt employ any black creators.Ā
And now, I have kids, so Iāve been listening to kidsā music nonstop - I know why it sucks and how it can be betterā¦ Every piece is a competitive advantage and I realized I have everything I need to put me ahead of the game.Ā
Iām just like, āOh, I clearly have a competitive advantage,ā so why would I stop?Ā
Favourite book on businessā¦
Hands down, What I Learned Losing a Million Dollarsā¦
What you wish you knew when you startedā¦
I just wish I had a better sense of myself and that I knew myself better 10 years ago - that wouldāve helped me stop chasing this āstatus,ā or ādreamā so I wouldāve had a lot fewer issuesā¦
It was a very hard thing for me to decipher when I was acting out of passion or out of desperation until one day I realized, āI actually donāt want to do any of this.ā
I wish I knew myself enough and trusted my gutā¦
My biggest business problem has always just been my own maturity, and I really feel as though it was an issue up until a few years ago, when I started to really turn a corner.
Butā¦
āYou donāt know what you donāt know.ā
Thatās it for issue no. 4!
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